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I was sent the following link by a friend and they were concerned that someone was passing it around on Twitter. What would be some good refutations for its content? Infowars: Vaccine Deaths And Injuries Skyrocket As Cover-up Implodes

"Cases of debilitating illnesses, soft-kill side-effects and even instant deaths as a result of vaccinations across the world are skyrocketing as the cover-up of deadly inoculations implodes and more people than ever become suspicious about what they are being injected with by health authorities who have proven they cannot be trusted. The implosion of the vaccine cover-up is sure to discourage more parents from vaccinating their children in the coming months, with the swine flu shot now being combined with the regular seasonal flu jab.

A recent Rasmussen poll found that 52 per cent of Americans were concerned about the safety of vaccines as we approach the start of school and college terms, where many children and teenagers will be “required” to take shots before they can attend..."

Laurel
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Richard Stelling
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    Some anti-vaccine myths may be strengthened by obvious pro-vaccine myths. E.g in Czech Republic a parent refusing TB vaccine to be given to a a newborn child (the vaccine is routinely given 4.th day of the life here) is treated almost as a criminal and e.g. advised not to go out with the baby at all until he is vaccined, in spite of TBC being very uncommon here for quite some time. – Suma Feb 25 '11 at 13:28
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    Very likely, the reason that TB is so uncommon is because of the vaccines. By limiting possible exposure, and making sure that vaccines are up to date, it helps protect even those without the vaccine. When parents choose to not have their child vaccinated, they are not just putting their child at risk but other children. Vaccines are all about prevention. "But no one is getting sick" is not an argument against vaccines, but *for* them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity – Ustice Feb 25 '11 at 15:33
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    @Suma When did "advised not to go out" become an example of being "treated like a criminal"? Is that how criminals are punished in the Czech Republic? Being advised not to go out? – DJClayworth Mar 09 '11 at 20:47
  • I am not talking about parents refusing the TB vaccine completely, but about parents who wanted to delay the TB vaccine a few weeks from the routine 4th day after birth. @DJClayworth: As for treating like a criminal, please, read what I wrote once more. I said "almost". Or do you consider an advice to stay at home appropriate for the situation? – Suma Mar 09 '11 at 21:07
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    Vote to close (subjective and argumentative). –  Mar 24 '11 at 19:05
  • I'm not very familiar with it, but a quick google search indicates that it's also a 9/11 truther web site, and I'd guess it discusses / promotes other conspiracy theories. I'd be tempted to try to dismiss the website outright, rather than dealing with the specific details, but maybe that's being lazy. – Andrew Grimm Feb 25 '11 at 13:11
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    @AndrewGrimm: Yes, it is filled with conspiracy theories and other garbage, but I would choose to disregard that for the purpose of addressing this specific question, lest we commit the [genetic fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy). – Jason Plank Feb 26 '11 at 15:34
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    @AndrewGrimm: The "genetic fallacy" isn't a problem here. The website lies about many things, and to assume that it might be lying here (especially when there is so much evidence to contradict what it says) isn't a fallacy. – DJClayworth Mar 09 '11 at 20:51
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    AVN league on twitter are as close to criminals as you can get. Damn disinformationists – Anonymous Type Mar 28 '11 at 05:57
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    I'm seeing a gap between the claims and the answers. There are (too) many claims in the question, including: (a) vaccinations cause debilitating illnesses, "soft-kill side-effects" ([???](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_kill)) and instant deaths, (b) the adverse effects are rapidly rising, (c) the rise is being covered up, (d) the cover-up will discourage parents, (e) swine flu and seasonal flu shots are being combined, (f) a poll showed 52% of Americans are concerned about vaccine safety. I am not seeing the answers target these points. – Oddthinking Jun 19 '12 at 08:40
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    -1 I am not on the vaccine cover-up conspiracy bandwagon but this question is not really skeptical of the accuracy of a claim. It is a rant disguised as a question(and not very well). Sadly this question will probably be used as propaganda on how you are trying to silence them. – Chad Jun 19 '12 at 14:20
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    @Chad The question was asked a loong time ago, before we set up more rigorous standards. I agree that it should probably be closed and re-asked in a proper format, especially since the answers are quite bad. – Konrad Rudolph Jun 20 '12 at 08:06
  • @KonradRudolph - Sorry normally I look at new questions but for some reason the default is active questions so when a question over a year old gets edited by a mod it gets bumped to the top and I failed to notice. – Chad Jun 20 '12 at 12:26
  • the single link in the accepted answer is incredibly informative. – Skylar Saveland Jun 20 '12 at 18:01
  • @Ustice "_Very likely, the reason that TB is so uncommon is because of the vaccines._" Plausible, but it is not a serious argument to force anyone to inject a potentially dangerous substance to a baby. – curiousguy Aug 19 '12 at 00:42
  • @Ustice "_When parents choose to not have their child vaccinated, they are not just putting their child at risk but other children._" what risk, if the other children have the vaccine? ;) – curiousguy Aug 25 '12 at 14:20
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    @Suma: TB is actually making comeback in western Europe, because they don't vaccinate anymore. Worse of all, the TB making comeback is antibiotics resistant. – vartec Jul 26 '13 at 08:42
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    @vartec the reason for the latter is mostly that it's spread through vector populations where strict adherence to treatment plans is not enforced nor followed. Patients get ill, take antibiotics for a few days until they start improving, then stop before the course is complete, leaving their bodies filled with bacteria, those strong enough to withstand the light doses they have been subjected to and would have died had the full course been followed. Those spread, the story repeats, and soon enough you are in real trouble. – jwenting Jul 26 '13 at 11:59
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    @curiousguy The risk to others from not vaccinating your own child is borne from diminishing the herd immunity. Whilst immunised people will (in most cases) still not get the virus, those who do not get immunised, and can contract the virus also become effective incubators, rather than just carriers, helping the virus spread and develop amongst the non immunised and those for whom the immunisation was ineffective. – Owen C. Jones Feb 14 '14 at 13:09
  • @Owen'Coves'Jones Last time I checked, the influenza vaccine had little or no effect on the propagation of the virus (which is *not* surprising, given the fact that the vaccine does not always prevent the disease). – curiousguy Feb 23 '14 at 11:14
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    @curiousguy Yes, the flu vaccine is one of the least effective, although the effectiveness of it tends to turn on which strain flu is most prevalent in a season, so it's effectiveness changes yearly. It's a pretty poor example though, because it's one of the only vaccines which has a particularly poor result. Vaccines for TB, Polio, Smallpox etc and hundreds of other things have been massively successful. Out of interest, when was the 'last time [you] checked' or was that just a passive-aggressive device? – Owen C. Jones Feb 25 '14 at 10:45
  • @Owen'Coves'Jones Last year. – curiousguy Feb 25 '14 at 14:59
  • I think that's unlikely. I see you edited out the smiley you added to the end too. I think we're done here. – Owen C. Jones Feb 25 '14 at 16:20
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    Well, obviously they are skyrocketing. Downwards, that is. – T. Sar Feb 05 '20 at 11:44

4 Answers4

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Well, the facts are that the process of vaccination involves injecting you with an antigen very similar to the thing you are to gain immunization to, so that your immune system may familiarize with it in a controlled environment. Ideally, this similar antigen should be harmless, but so similar that your immunity towards the injected antigen will transfer to immunity to the actual disease. It is known that this is not entirely without side effects. It is indeed possible that you become ill from the very antigen you're injecting.

This is not at all what the anti vax people are stressing up about, however. Probably because it's well documented that there's a significantly greater risk in not getting vaccinated.

Now, the article you're referencing is problematic because it bundles together several completely different issues. For one part, it deals with the case of the H1N1 vaccine and the alleged links to narcolepsy which is an actual scientific debate regarding a brand new vaccine, and the claims are currently being investigated rigorously. There's one report going on in Finland from which we've only seen preliminary results (!) which seem to vindicate the connection, and there's another study in Sweden hopefully to be published within a few months. Until those studies are published, I wouldn't dare comment on the likelihood of a connection. If you're in the H1N1 high risk demography, at least Swedish government still recommends the vaccine.

For these guys, this just confirms their assumption that all vaccines are dangerious and should be avoided. But the H1N1 story says nothing that will validate the links between the MMR vaccine and autism, for instance. This is an entirely different claim, it is about a vaccine that's been in long use, and it's been refuted countless times. The alleged autism claim is based solely on an Andrew Wakefield study that's been shown since long to be a complete scam.

So there's no simple answer to the vaccine story, because it's not one story. These guys are cross-pollinating the news in a manner that doesn't make sense, to try and validate a long debunked theory. What can be said is that all of this is very tragic. The vaccine scare has given us an increase in pertussis morbidity, which is a disease we can avoid entirely. I know this'll come off as an argument from emotion here, but I really think it's a shame that people are still dying from pertussis, due to ignorance and fear mongering alone, when we have the very simple means to defeat it.

David Hedlund
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    +1. This is not one story, different vaccines need to be judged each on its own, depending also where (and how) you live. – Suma Feb 25 '11 at 13:32
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    Saying that vaccination is nothing more than injecting antigens is inaccurate. You also have adjuvants which don't react with the immune system the natural way. – Christian Mar 07 '11 at 13:41
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    +1, @Christian, that's a fair point. I over-simplified, in that regard. – David Hedlund Mar 07 '11 at 13:44
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    @David - From a factual non-argumentative perspective: Do you have any figures to back up your claim that "The vaccine scare has given us an increase in pertussis morbidity"? Is that claim also worldwide or in a particular geographical region? – going Mar 10 '11 at 22:09
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    @xiao: Great question! There's [an article on Herd Immunity on SBM](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=516). It gets to pertussis about half way through. It provides some examples where the link between a decline in vaccination and increase in infection is apparent, such as the Sweden-example. Although to be fair, [this article, which underlines that the problem is geographical](http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/2/365.full) points to several other possible explanations. That commentary doesn't mention to the herd immunity aspect at all, which I think might be unfair. – David Hedlund Mar 11 '11 at 08:30
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    I run http://factsnotfantasy.com/vaccines.php and one consistent thing I see is that the anti-vax crowd is all about appeals to emotion and will outright lie for their cause. – Larian LeQuella Mar 11 '11 at 21:27
  • @David - The Sweden case says the immunisation was discontinued not as a result of people failing to immunise due to a "vaccine scare" or anti-vacinners scaremongering. That is the link I would like to see: scaremongering == increase in morbidity. – going Mar 12 '11 at 08:11
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    @skyl: [no it isn't](http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2009/09/17/another-weak-study-proves-vaccines-cause-autism/) – David Hedlund Jun 17 '12 at 20:36
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    @skyl: what, 56/228 would be 8 times more likely, this is less than 56 and out of the considerably greater number of 678. The frequency is a little more than double, but looking at the actual numbers, even you should realize that there is no significance at all to these numbers. That study is poor for the exact same reasons as the previous link, and it draws conclusions that aren't substantiated by its own data. – David Hedlund Jun 18 '12 at 06:49
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    Look, it takes more effort for me to look into and identify the problem with your low quality studies than it does for you to disregard that answer and blurt out a new low quality study, and there's nothing in it for either of us. But you have no reason to worry, even the already accepted vaccines are being continuously monitored and evaluated. We definitely haven't *quit looking into vaccines' effect on the nervous system*, and if there's reason for concern, we'll pick up and react on it. – David Hedlund Jun 18 '12 at 06:52
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    @skyl: the quality of the study is an inherent property of the study. the quality of an argument is not an inherent property of the blog it is published in. low quality studies < accurate understanding of the world. – David Hedlund Jun 18 '12 at 15:44
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    @skyl: yes. we've been over this. – David Hedlund Jun 18 '12 at 18:40
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The article you link to is all over the place and largely references itself rather than linking to primary sources. It's hard to mount an argument against such a profligate barrage of claims. The best you can do is patiently take claims one at a time and search the scientific literature for studies that refute the various hypotheses presented. The worst thing you can do in an argument (in which you wish to convince the adversary) is dismiss their concerns without evidence.

There are simple things to point out about the article. For instance,

Health professionals and doctors with government ties were also blamed in Finland and Sweden after a H1N1 vaccination program was halted following a 300 per cent increase in cases of the neurological disorder narcolepsy amongst children and young people who had received the shot over the last six months.

A 300% INCREASE! Responsible epidemiologists, I believe, would report something like "4 times greater risk of developing narcolepsy". If you look at the data, you see that this "300% increase" amounts to 20 patients, it appears. 1 So, instead of 20 in 100,000, you might expect 80 in 100,000. It's still worth a look and worth striving to improve; but, this fact alone might not justify violent revolution.

Gardasil appears to be safe, according to my brief look at the literature. Although, I'm not a pediatric neurologist and, at least one thinks that Gardasil was brought to the market too soon and that it is causing serious long-term side-effects.

I have a humble degree in mathematics with a concentration in epidemiology. I'm very interested in vaccine safety and cost/benefit. I would like to be strongly pro-vaccine. However, dismissive statements implying that there is no debate do not push me in the pro-vaccine direction. Flatly saying "there's a significantly greater risk in not getting vaccinated", "it's been refuted countless times", "the claim ... is based solely on .. a complete scam" without any reference is unbecoming of a true skeptic. Use references to peer-reviewed papers.

The case of universal Hepatitis B vaccination for newborn Americans may put me slightly at odds with those who would suggest that following the AAP schedule to the letter is the absolute best approach to vaccination.

The incidence of HepB before vaccination in the United States for those under 15 was on the order of 1 in 100,000. At $100 a series, we are spending $10,000,000 to prevent 15 cases of HepB when we vaccinate 100,000 low-risk Americans? (please correct me if this is not the right ballpark).

Edit: the low incidence reported in the above paper might be due to the fact that those under 5 are far less likely to suffer from an acute HepB infection. People who are infected as children, on the other hand, are more likely to develop chronic life-long infections resulting in severe outcomes such as liver cancer and death. The CDC reports that 45,000 children < 10 were infected with HepB every year before universal vaccination. Meanwhile, the CHOP reports "18,000 children were infected with hepatitis B virus by the time they were 10 years old". These numbers suggest an incidence rate more on the order of 70/100,000 and 30/100,000, respectively. According to the CHOP report, 1/2 of these infections were from infected mothers, while the CDC's numbers have about 1/4 coming from infected mothers. Using the CDC's high number of vaccine-preventable incidence, it looks like vaccinating 100,000 children could prevent as many as 1,000 cases of HepB.

Using the incidence estimates from the CDC, universal HBV looks like a slam dunk in cost/benefit. BUT.

There is a lot of scary stuff out there, at first glance.

If any of those peer-reviewed papers have one grain of reality in them, then universal HepB vaccination may not be best thing to do in terms of risk and benefit. A high-risk child going immediately into daycare in NYC who has an infected father should almost certainly still bear the risk of receiving HBV in the first month. On the other hand, a child with a stay-at-home mom, living in a rural area in the US, with almost no chance of contracting HepB, may be better off not getting HBV within 12 hours of birth. If HBV within the first day of birth does indeed put the child at greater risk of autoimmune disorders and special education needs, the extremely low-risk child perhaps should not receive HBV at such a young age.

(*) UPDATE: I wanted to check on the "9 times higher risk of needing special education given HBV" numbers. The NHANES database is available as csv here . Doing a simple model in R to look at the relationship between HBV and special education, adjusting for age, health and neonatal ICU (TL; DR: Any claim of 9X from this data is highly misleading.):

> summary(hbv)
2or3    1 NA's 
 228  678   65 
> summary(spec_ed)
   Not SpecEd   NA's 
   912     58      1 
> cs(spec_ed, hbv)

          Exposure
Outcome    Non-exposed Exposed Total
  Negative 221         632     853  
  Positive 7           46      53   
  Total    228         678     906  

           Rne         Re      Rt   
  Risk     0.03        0.07    0.06 

                                         Estimate Lower95ci Upper95ci
 Risk difference (attributable risk)     0.04     0.01      0.08     
 Risk ratio                              2.21     0.98      5        
 Attr. frac. exp. -- (Re-Rne)/Re         0.55                        
 Attr. frac. pop. -- (Rt-Rne)/Rt*100 %   47.52                       
 Number needed to harm (NNH)             26.92    12.69     149.36   
   or 1/(risk difference)                                            

> cc(spec_ed, hbv)

        hbv
spec_ed  2or3   1 Total
  Not     221 632   853
  SpecEd    7  46    53
  Total   228 678   906

OR =  2.3 
Exact 95% CI =  1.01, 6.12  
Chi-squared = 4.27, 1 d.f., P value = 0.039
Fisher's exact test (2-sided) P value = 0.049 

I don't understand how these numbers are stretched for an 8.6 OR with p=0.0003!

When I make a model with their covariates, I can come up with a 2.77 OR:

> model = glm(spec_ed ~ hbv + ecq + age + health, family=binomial)
> print(summary(model))

Call:
glm(formula = spec_ed ~ hbv + ecq + age + health, family = binomial)

Deviance Residuals: 
    Min       1Q   Median       3Q      Max  
-1.0094  -0.3549  -0.2697  -0.1989   2.9430  

Coefficients:
            Estimate Std. Error z value Pr(>|z|)    
(Intercept) -4.08455    0.68606  -5.954 2.62e-09 ***
hbv1         1.02191    0.45226   2.260  0.02385 *  
ecqNot      -1.51885    0.33112  -4.587 4.50e-06 ***
age          0.16108    0.05827   2.764  0.00570 ** 
health       0.40134    0.14618   2.746  0.00604 ** 
---
Signif. codes:  0 ‘***’ 0.001 ‘**’ 0.01 ‘*’ 0.05 ‘.’ 0.1 ‘ ’ 1 

(Dispersion parameter for binomial family taken to be 1)

    Null deviance: 391.85  on 899  degrees of freedom
Residual deviance: 351.47  on 895  degrees of freedom
  (71 observations deleted due to missingness)
AIC: 361.47

Number of Fisher Scoring iterations: 6

> exp(1.02)
[1] 2.773195

But, it's worth noting that using only those who got the triple series ("1") and those who got no HBV ("3") (instead of putting "2" -those who got some- in with those who got none, "3"), a statistically significant correlation is not achieved. Also, learning disabilities and attention deficit disorder are uncorrelated with HBV in this NHANES data.

I made a little tool to test hypothesis of any variable in NHANES with a simple contingency table. The protective effect of HBV on females is actually more pronounced than the supposed negative effect on the boys.

The girls were clearly protected by HBV:

In [12]: ct, p, nhanes = test_kwargs(NHANES, only_test={"riagendr": ["2"]}, float_limits={"ridageyr": [0,9]}, imq020=(["1"], ["3"]), pfq040=(["1"], ["2"]))
    pfq040 in ['1'] pfq040 in ['2']
imq020 in ['1'] 12  559 
imq020 in ['3'] 10  140 

p = 0.00381724204472

Whereas, the boys were only borderline statistically significant.

In [13]: ct, p, nhanes = test_kwargs(NHANES, only_test={"riagendr": ["1"]}, float_limits={"ridageyr": [0,9]}, imq020=(["1"], ["3"]), pfq040=(["1"], ["2"]))
    pfq040 in ['1'] pfq040 in ['2']
imq020 in ['1'] 46  632 
imq020 in ['3'] 4   147 

p = 0.0535442211328

I believe you should isolate each claim and judge it on the evidence. Even peer-reviewed articles can be misleading, sadly.

Skylar Saveland
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    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm#hepb Put the infection rate of children at 33,000 new cases per year before the widespread introduction of Hep B vaccination. Those were *new* infections (uninfected mothers). The total new infections "has declined from an average of 450,000 (Americans per year) in the 1980s". It's difficult to speculate on what *could* have happened here, isn't it? – John Lyon Jun 19 '12 at 11:58
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    @jozzas thanks for pointing that out and making me look at those numbers more closely. I have amended the answer. Much appreciated. – Skylar Saveland Jun 19 '12 at 20:13
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    "_However, dismissive statements implying that there is no debate do not push me in the pro-vaccine direction._" Yes, it's a **systematic** attitude in so called "skeptics" forums. lol – curiousguy Aug 19 '12 at 00:52
  • @jozzas In France, **the rate of Hep B disease is described by proponents of Hep B vaccine as skyrocketing since the stop of the systematic Hep B vaccination (it was not before).** So I could as well draw the conclusion that *the vaccine caused skyrocketing Hep B disease, lol*. (That is ironical in case you have not noticed. The data on Hep B and Hep B vaccine is obviously as bogus as on influenza. The large pro-vaccine study in France constructed to prove that the Hep B systematic vaccination of children did not cause neurological syndromes was a pathetic pseudo-science comedy.) – curiousguy Aug 19 '12 at 00:57
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    @curiousguy Again, post this French research. I also don't seem to understand what you're getting at - if they *stopped* vaccinating and infections have since "skyrocketed", how is that proof that the vaccine was the cause? In unvaccinated people? You need citations here. – John Lyon Aug 19 '12 at 09:25
  • @jozzas "_Again, post this French research._" But I don't think it can be called "research", it is the crazy arguments used in favor of the Hep B vaccine! "_if they stopped vaccinating and infections have since "skyrocketed", how is that proof that the vaccine was the cause?_" I think it's clear: **before the vaccine, there was not skyrocketing.** After the stop of systematic vaccine of adolescents (that according to official propaganda was mandatory for some time, but in fact was never mandatory, but was conducted without parental authorization, IOW illegally), there is skyrocketing. – curiousguy Aug 22 '12 at 06:07
  • The most likely cause of this skyrocketing: the vaccine itself! (Of course, I don't take this skyrocketing claim seriously, but those in favor of the vaccine say they do.) – curiousguy Aug 22 '12 at 06:09
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    @curiousguy You need to post some evidence to back up what you are saying. As it stands it's just unsubstantiated ranting. – John Lyon Aug 22 '12 at 06:18
  • @jozzas It isn't ranting. It's facts. – curiousguy Aug 22 '12 at 08:06
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    @curiousguy post an answer with references. – Skylar Saveland Aug 22 '12 at 15:39
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I tried to click the link but unfortunately it did not lead to the article.

In terms of the level of distrust in the vaccine, it does not seem to agree with that given in the link below which is associated with Oxford University https://ourworldindata.org/vaccination

As well as discussing, quite extensively the efficacy of vaccines in saving lives, including many diseases being almost completely eradicated in US after vaccine use, it states that a Welcome study found 92% of people believe vaccination programs are importan with 87% in North America. The map shows 10-15% of people in US disagree that vaccines are safe. A lot lower than the 52% quoted in the passage.

Tman
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    It's a bit problematic when the only remaining copy of the text on the searchable web is on stackexchange itself. Even the site of origin of the original - rasmussenreports.com seems to have de-listed it altogether for unknown reasons. I'd hazard a guess that it wasn't well received. – Jiminy Cricket. Jul 16 '21 at 10:44
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The vaccine that are commonly used do use adjuvants. Often that leads to adverse effects. The study that approved the Pandemrix® vaccine noted that the vaccine gave 21.5% of children between 6 and 9 headaches.

When the vaccine was used under live condition in Germany for swine flu the general monitoring system wasn't sensitive enough to pick up the adverse effects. Given the fact that the general monitoring system isn't working we don't know about the real extend of the damage that the vaccine has done under live conditions.

Christian
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  • I'm sorry that the link is German, but I don't have a good English link handy. – Christian Mar 11 '11 at 21:17
  • Google Translate for convenience: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wodarg.de%2Fgrippe%2Fgesundheit%2F3676879.html – Lie Ryan Mar 24 '11 at 19:16
  • The article twice linked in this answer carries the hallmark of cherry-picking comments ""Large-scale trial of the German population", "untested pandemic vaccines," "severe side effects," "devil's active amplifier" - so hostile were the most against the swine flu vaccine last fall. Especially in the adjuvant Pandemrix ® was self-appointed experts sharply addressed the media." which makes it dismissable quackery and evidence for nothing. If you've got better sources, why not cite them? – msw Apr 17 '11 at 13:56
  • @msw: Do you doubt the basic claim of my post that general monitoring system isn't picking up the side effect that the clinical trial would have been predicted? | I don't see the fact that you don't like the style of Wolfgang Woodarg as a reason against linking to him. | Woodarg is hartly self appointed. He has a degree. He had democrated legitimation and he's now in a well respected NGO that focuses on transparancy. When it comes to understanding how big organizations hide information he has credentialed expertise. – Christian Jun 19 '12 at 16:45
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    Simply doesn't address the question which asks about *"skyrocketing deaths"* and a *"cover up"*. – dmckee --- ex-moderator kitten Jun 30 '12 at 17:04
  • @dmckee : If the basic method to determine the amount of deaths doesn't work than the true number of deaths is covered up. – Christian Jun 30 '12 at 21:29
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    Because failing to record kids getting headaches is the same as failing to noticing dead people all over the places. Right. The questions makes a specific and fairly scary claim and you haven't addressed it. – dmckee --- ex-moderator kitten Jun 30 '12 at 21:36
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    @dmckee: They do more than fail to record something. They falsly claim that their number represent reality. They are covering up side effects. It's not about failure to notice deads but about failure to notice causation. If there's no source that accurately reports side effects of vaccination there no way to address the claim directly. The evidence to decide how many get killed doesn't exist. At the moment the highest rated answer to this question basically says that vaccinations has no side effects which is clearly false. – Christian Jul 02 '12 at 11:07
  • we didn't have sensitive monitoring to pick up minor adverse effects for one vaccine, is a long long way from skyrocketing deaths. the monitoring would catch deaths. – John Jul 23 '21 at 16:21