19

Edit2: I'm revising the question again. Please note that I am not talking about card tricks like THIS. I'm talking about specific examples below which are at least portrayed as far more complex, ornate, and supposedly based on psychology and suggestion.

Derren Brown (website) is described as being a "a British illusionist, mentalist, painter, writer and sceptic" (WIKI). He pulls off various feats that are, indeed, insanely amazing [looking]. Examples:

Derren's website (as noted by @Oliver_C) states that he "combines magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship in order to seemingly predict and control human behaviour, as well as performing mind-bending feats of mentalism."

I do not consider the above to be in the magic category, and know that some believe he is using NLP to accomplish these feats (LINK), despite his own denial of using such a method.

If one holds that this is "magic," please make a solid case for why it is in such a category other than citing his website or methods, for his stated methods also include psychology and misdirection. I classify the above as those which appear to be using psychology or suggestive wording to influence others and make "predictions" appear real.

Is it possible to influence people's choices so precisely via psychology or linguistic suggestion, as to accomplish what is shown above?

Oddthinking
  • 140,378
  • 46
  • 548
  • 638
Hendy
  • 21,665
  • 17
  • 116
  • 179
  • 6
    From [Derren Browns' own website](http://derrenbrown.co.uk/about-derren/): `[He] is a performer who combines magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship in order to seemingly predict and control human behaviour, as well as performing mind-bending feats of mentalism.` I agree with @Oddthinking, I don't think we should reveal magic tricks here. Magicians are usually good allies of skeptics, e.g. [Houdini](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini#Debunking_spiritualists), [James Randi](http://www.skepdic.com/projectalpha.html) – Oliver_C Jun 23 '11 at 09:41
  • Identification of particular magic methods is probably off-topic because there is no skeptical claim here. If this question was reformatted to present an asserted claim it may be more on-topic but, as it is, it fits the form of "Identify this" instead of "Is this true?" – MrHen Jun 23 '11 at 15:46
  • @MrHen: Edited -- does that help? – Hendy Jun 23 '11 at 16:01
  • @Hendy: Yeah, I removed my downvote. I am still personally confused by the _point_ of the question but the bolded bit at the end makes things much clearer. Thanks. :) – MrHen Jun 23 '11 at 16:08
  • 1
    @MrHen: I guess I just don't buy that it's "magic" based on anything I know of "magic." Magic, to me, implies static objects being manipulated by the magician. Magic, to me, does *not* tend to include figuring out how to guide someone through a grocery store along a predicted route. Thus, I'm skeptical of calling it "magic." I'm also skeptical that "psychology" or "linguistic suggestions" could do such a thing. Just call me skeptical all the way around. If someone can show that he classifies the above as "magic" and not "psychology," I'll just let it go. – Hendy Jun 23 '11 at 16:15
  • @MrHen: (continued) on the other hand, if the above are in his "psychology" category, then I'd be looking for the scientific basis for doing such things. Not sure what other options are left other than pure rigging of filming... – Hendy Jun 23 '11 at 16:17
  • 2
    @Hendy: Sure. I just don't think that this is the place to ask whether something fits the definition of "magic". Asking for the classification of a trick may be too off-topic. – MrHen Jun 23 '11 at 16:20
  • 2
    @Hendy- "Mentalism" is a branch of magic. There is a documentary you can watch on YouTube, [History of Magic - Mind Reading](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrHWgWNXveY), where magicians/mentalists (including James Randi) share their thoughts. (P.S. I have done magic tricks since I was a kid and I did notice that "mind reading" tricks usually impressed people more than "sleight of hand" tricks) – Oliver_C Jun 23 '11 at 18:54
  • @Oliver_C: Now *that* is, I think, what I needed to see. I'm listening to the first part and agree that this is *just* what Derren appears to be doing (though some of his doings are more complicated than predicting a number or word). Thanks!! If you wrote an answer including the specifics of mentalism as what explains the "psychology" aspect of his acts, I think that would be the ticket. – Hendy Jun 23 '11 at 19:47
  • 2
    The fact that [NLP has been proved not to work](http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/74/82) lends some credence to his denial of using it. – Konrad Rudolph Jun 23 '11 at 20:28
  • @Konrad: I noted that and originally had it listed as disproved, as well as Derren's denying it... but in my wave of revisions, I just left it out for simplicity's sake :) – Hendy Jun 23 '11 at 20:38
  • Brown's denial of using NLP is, once again, just misdirection. He does indeed, at times, using certain techniques from NLP. NLP cannot be proven or disproven because most of the patterns and techniques are taken directly from applied psychology anyway. Paul McKenna uses NLP successfully in "I Can Change Your Life" - and he is not a magician or psychological illusionist. http://www.director.co.uk/MAGAZINE/2006/11%20Nov/mckenna_60_4.html – Sparkster Hubs Oct 28 '12 at 14:09
  • [Snopes wades in](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2272/does-nlp-work), arguing that Derren Brown never even claims to use NLP. – Oddthinking Nov 04 '12 at 23:11
  • Link to meta discussion on deletion of answer: http://meta.skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/2006/are-youtube-videos-by-magicians-explaining-their-tricks-reliable-sources – Ron Maimon Nov 27 '12 at 04:31
  • The basic point one must keep in mind in the "impossible" stunts is that the subject has been pre-hypnotized before the show, and has several hypnotic suggestions implanted that make the effect possible. This includes "choose vinegar", "you want a BMX bike", "tell me your PIN and forget". These pre-show hypnotic sessions are a pre-screening for appearing on the show, and the subjects are not aware of the suggestions consciously. The use of hypnosis is Derren Brown's method, and it only produces impossible effects if you don't believe hypnosis exists. It is well established that it does exist. – Ron Maimon Nov 27 '12 at 14:08

1 Answers1

19

I think your own research answers this question.

Derren Brown is, by your own reference, an illusionist. By his own admission, he uses "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship".

Brown performs some tricks with props and sleight-of-hand, such as with cards and cigars, but he is famous for his stage hypnosis and mentalism. As @Oliver_C has pointed out, the History of Magic documentary has some background on the History of Mentalism.

As an illusionist, you should expect that when he is performing that he "lies" about he does. Furthermore, he even admits to that:

I am often dishonest in my techniques, but always honest about my dishonesty. As I say in each show, 'I mix magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship'. I happily admit cheating, as it's all part of the game. I hope some of the fun for the viewer comes from not knowing what's real and what isn't. I am an entertainer first and foremost, and I am careful not to cross any moral line that would take me into manipulating people's real-life decisions or belief systems.
(Source: His book, Tricks of the Mind, via the Wikipedia page.)

The same Wikipedia page explains he does not claim to use NLP, describing aspects of it as limited. However, in a 1999 lecture he does claim to use NLP techniques. Note: Just because he believes/believed they worked, doesn't mean they do.

In the same page, there are links to Simon Singh, a noted skeptic, who wrote an article where he exposed one of the card tricks as a straight-forward magic trick, and objected to Brown claiming that it was done through psychology.

I do not think it is appropriate to reveal a magic trick that is being presented as such, and I consider Derren Brown to be presenting himself as a magician, despite Singh's concerns.

Brown reveals some of his tricks himself in his book Devils Picture Book, which has limited availability, to magicians only.

So, in conclusion, Brown is not using psychology to the extent that he appears when in the middle of performing a trick, but he admits as much at the beginning of the show and off-stage.

Glorfindel
  • 1,452
  • 1
  • 17
  • 28
Oddthinking
  • 140,378
  • 46
  • 548
  • 638
  • 1
    Thanks for the answer... but how does "magic" explain predicting the route someone would take through a grocery store? I'm mostly interested in the "psychological-appearing" things such as the birthday present or grocery store -- are these folks just playing along? – Hendy Jun 23 '11 at 12:43
  • (As discussed with @Oliver_C) This is a form of magic known as [mentalism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism). There are some well-known ways in which people tend to think the same (e.g. when asked to quickly name a vegetable), there is cold-reading and warm-reading, but there are also far more ways to use standard magical techniques to give an impression of being a psychic. – Oddthinking Jun 24 '11 at 01:10
  • Yes, can you include a reference to mentalism and @Oliver_C's youtube series on mentalism? I've watched a lot of stuff and am satisfied with calling it "magic" but also want it to be linked to "mentalism" which I *do* believe has some psychological tricks (which I still don't understand) that allows one to create the strong sense of prediction in his videos. With that added in, the question is answered sufficiently for me! – Hendy Jun 26 '11 at 15:51
  • On the James Randi Foundation forum, we have a thread on "Magic" by which we mean professional stage magic or "conjuring" or "illusion". The techniques used by professionals are closely guarded secrets as they after all are their livelihood. Still, if you delve into the resources above with diligence, you may gain some clues. Rest assured there is no "magic" in the supernatural or paranormal sense involved. The techniques used by Houdini are very well known, but still there are those that maintain he used paranormal powers and even that he was not aware of this! – M. Werner Jun 26 '11 at 20:30
  • @M. Werner: good points. I wasn't worried about real "powers" -- it was that his act looks like he can say certain things and produce an insane response (like making someone want a BMX bike on the spot vs. them writing down a week ago that they wanted a leather jacket for their birthday). I was skeptical that these tricks could be done with "psychology." That one still baffles me... but I'm definitely quite satisfied now that I know what "mentalism" is. – Hendy Jun 27 '11 at 12:16
  • 2
    Talking only about TV shows, it is important to always remember that Reality Magic on TV is open to editing, cherry-picking and so on. Except for certain tricks, it is never live. He himself hammers this fact into you in his explanation of _The System_. –  Jul 28 '12 at 16:57
  • Unless Derren Brown himself told you in confidence precisely what mechanics he is using, it is perfectly appropriate for you--or anyone else not bound by contract or personal relationship--to publish their best guesses about his mechanics in any forum at all. – philosodad Jul 29 '12 at 22:15
  • @philosodad: I am not saying it is illegal. I am saying it is inappropriate, just as it would be doubly inappropriate to give away spoilers for movies here: (a) because it would ruin the enjoyment for others [learning magic has ruined a lot of magic shows for me]; (b) because it takes away the income of entertainers who have worked hard and not done anything to deserve and (c) because it is off-topic for the forum. (Hypocrisy alert: I have discussed magic tricks here where I have had no knowledge of the technique. Maybe this should go to meta?) – Oddthinking Jul 30 '12 at 01:14
  • @oddthinking I did not say it was legal. I said it was *appropriate*. We can take this to chat if you like. – philosodad Jul 30 '12 at 02:31
  • @philosodad: Sorry. I am happy to take to chat if you like, but before I read this comment I decided to take it to [Meta](http://meta.skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/1875/are-magic-tricks-in-scope) - not just because of this comment stream, but because of [your question here](http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/10272/can-a-catatonic-state-be-induced-without-the-use-of-drugs) has pointed out to me the policy isn't clear. – Oddthinking Jul 30 '12 at 02:48
  • -1: I am sorry, but this answer is ridiculous, it misses the main point--- Derren Brown is clearly using hypnosis, as he uses standard induction techniques in both his stage and television shows as a cenerpiece of the act. The hypnosis allows him to pull of the "impossible" stunts which are not sleight of hand, like guessing PIN numbers, passwords, or predicting the future (through simple suggestions). The fact that he also uses ordinary magic must not be used to infer that he isn't using hypnosis, as his main act is stage hypnosis and quick induction, of which he is a master. – Ron Maimon Nov 27 '12 at 04:18
  • @Ron: My answer does link to Stage Hypnosis, which is indeed a key part of his act. He combines that with sleight-of-hand and other mentalism. – Oddthinking Nov 27 '12 at 04:30
  • @Ron: Your (currently deleted) answer does provide some evidence against a Wikipedia claim I cite here. In this [behind-the-scenes video](http://youtu.be/brfFCpVtvkY?t=57m54s) he *does* claim to use NLP techniques (which have been addressed on Skeptics.SE elsewhere.). – Oddthinking Nov 27 '12 at 04:32
  • @Oddthinking: He doesn't just use "stage hypnosis", he hypnotizes people who appear on his show on a regular basis, and gets them to reveal PIN numbers and passwords, rearranges their expectations for birthday presents, and gets them to want vinegar from the store, or a giraffe. These pre-show hypnosis sessions are a selection procedure for his show. He uses (a little) "NLP", as he shows in the 1999 video, where he gets a lady to select the 3 of diamonds, but it's an unreliable very weak effect, as he says. The NLP in his television specials is just patter, the effect is huge. – Ron Maimon Nov 27 '12 at 04:33
  • @Ron, I've updated with the claim of using NLP. Thank you. The discussion about whether stage hypnosis is the same as hypnosis is controversial and has been addressed [here](http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/1417/are-participants-in-stage-hypnosis-part-of-the-show) [several](http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/504/can-an-average-person-be-involuntarily-hypnotised) [times](http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/2632/is-stage-hypnotism-a-trick) already. As for changing people's expectations, uh, he's a skilled illusionist. – Oddthinking Nov 27 '12 at 04:42