7

I saw the following claim on The Independent's web-site:

All six of Germany's Muslim members of parliament voted in favour of same-sex marriage as Angela Merkel faced criticism for opposing the bill and announcing: "Marriage is between a man and a woman."

But this second quote says "most", not all:

[...] her party's MP Cemile Giousouf, the first Muslim elected into the Bundestag in 2013, was praised on social media after endorsing the landmark measure. [...] “She's a Muslim woman and a Conservative. She voted for marriage equality, most of her CDU colleagues voted against.

I find it very, very hard to believe that a Conservative Muslim voted in favor of gay marriage. Islam is clear on homosexuality, and several Muslim countries impose the death penalty for homosexuality. I saw the Pew Research a few months ago citing that most European Muslims believe homosexual behavior is immoral.

I'd be surprised if six Christian American Republican Congressmen or Senators supported gay marriage. Yet I'm supposed to believe ALL six Muslim MPs did? (I find it hard to believe there are only six Muslim MPs in Germany in the first place, given the influx of refugees...)

So is it really true that all of Germany's Muslim MPs voted in favor of same-sex marriage?

Brythan
  • 10,162
  • 5
  • 46
  • 53
TangoFoxtrot
  • 213
  • 1
  • 5
  • 16
    This was a recorded vote, so you can check the vote for each *Bundestagsmitglied* in the [official record](https://www.bundestag.de/blob/513868/14a2f3f235d250a8f65f0ba218b50287/20170630_1-data.pdf). Cemile Giousouf did vote "ja". However, religious affiliation is *not* recorded (as it should be in a secular democracy), so there's hardly a way of verifying that there are exactly six (and not five or seven) Muslim *Bundestag* members. I'll pass to comment in detail on your obscure speculation about an effect of an "influx" of refugees; I'll only point out that refugees have no right to vote. – Schmuddi Jul 22 '17 at 06:34
  • 3
    @Schmuddi "religious affiliation is not recorded" you mean it is not public, because recorded it is, in the town hall of residence, for tax purposes. – Federico Jul 22 '17 at 06:45
  • 20
    @Lee: There is no contradiction between the initial "all" and the later "most". The former refers to Muslim MPs. The latter refers to the Christian Democratic Union MPs. – Oddthinking Jul 22 '17 at 08:02
  • 5
    @Federico: True. Perhaps I should have said something like "religious affiliation is not tracked in parliamentary affairs". – Schmuddi Jul 22 '17 at 08:41
  • @Schmuddi yep, that is better, since the "as it should be in a secular democracy" that follows: other (most?) secular democracies do not have a state register with all religious affiliations. – Federico Jul 22 '17 at 09:00
  • 9
    In Europe there is a difference between a *Conservative Muslim* and a *conservative Muslim*. With a capital C, a Conservative is usually taken to be a member of a centre-right political party (as Cemile Giousouf is in the CDU, and she also happens to be Muslim), who may have any of a range of views between liberal (economically or socially), libertarian, conservative (economically or socially), capitalist, corporatist, mixed-economy, traditionalist, religious, reactionary, globalist or nationalist. – Henry Jul 22 '17 at 11:31
  • 4
    She's a political conservative who is a Muslim. If she were very conservative in her observance of Islam, she would not likely join the CDU, a Christian party. – phoog Jul 22 '17 at 14:10
  • 1
    Is it correct to call CDU "a Christian party"? Or is the term "Christian" in the name for only historical reasons? Similarly I would not call the SDP a "social party". – GEdgar Jul 22 '17 at 17:47
  • 2
    *I find it hard to believe there are only six Muslim MPs in Germany in the first place, given the influx of refugees*. Are you aware that refugees aren't allowed to vote? – Philipp Jul 24 '17 at 11:04
  • @GEdgar It's mostly historical. – Philipp Jul 24 '17 at 11:06
  • @Philipp I know they aren't allowed to vote. That doesn't mean they don't vote. – TangoFoxtrot Jul 24 '17 at 21:42
  • 9
    @TangoFoxtrot In Germany, it means exactly that. Lying to public administration about your citizenship isn't as easy in Germany as it is in the US. You won't get on the voters list without proof of citizenship. – Philipp Jul 25 '17 at 08:40
  • 2
    @GEdgar It's very much a Christian party. They regularly reaffirm the importance of this belief in their official party meetings. It's plain incorrect to suggest otherwise, as Philipp did. – Konrad Rudolph Jul 25 '17 at 12:53
  • @Schmuddi Where did you get the idea that Germany is a secular democracy? It's officially not, and the preamble to the Grundgesetz is explicit in this regard. – Konrad Rudolph Jul 25 '17 at 12:54
  • 1
    @KonradRudolph: Oh, well. Yes. Yes, we could have *that* discussion and split some hairs as to what the legal status of the preamble actually is, about whether the invocation of God in it is anything more than a testimony of faith by the authors of the *Grundgesetz*, and whether any aspect of the political system of Germany is affected in practice by the preamble. Do you believe that the question that is being asked here will benefit from that? I don't. – Schmuddi Jul 25 '17 at 21:52
  • 1
    This is similar to the endless debate in the US about whether God references specifically the Christian God or a creator God in general. Ironically, despite being a Christian myself, I'm of the latter opinion. – TangoFoxtrot Jul 26 '17 at 03:20
  • 3
    The point about the influx of refugees is ludicrous. Significant numbers of refugees from Syria started arriving around 2015, it will take decades for any number of them to have the right to vote, if they do at all and even that wouldn't completely upset German demography. The MPs in question are either born in Germany or living there for a very long time. None of them has roots in Arabic countries or any connection whatsoever to the recent refugee situation. – Relaxed Aug 03 '17 at 17:48
  • @Relaxed Thank you, I realized later that all of these MPs have Turkish German names, which indicates they're Germans of Turkish background, not Syrian. So you're right. – TangoFoxtrot Aug 03 '17 at 22:49

1 Answers1

41

Yes.

In 2016, there were 3 members of the Bundestag who officially stated that they are Muslim. However, a number of people did not give their religion.

The German newspaper Die Welt says that there are 6 Muslims: Ekin Deligöz, Omid Nouripour, Cem Özdemir, Özcan Mutlu, Aydan Özoguz, and Cemile Giousouf.

5 of them are in parties that primarily voted for marriage equality, while the last is in a Christian party which primarily voted no (that is what "most" is refering to in your quote).

The voting record is public, so you can verify that all 6 Muslims did indeed vote with "yes".

tim
  • 51,356
  • 19
  • 207
  • 177
  • 37
    So there's a female Muslim in a conservative Christian party who voted for marriage equality – this fact alone might be a mind-blowing reveal for people who try to apply the Republican/Democrat political spectrum as a yardstick for anything other than US politics. – Schmuddi Jul 22 '17 at 08:45
  • 3
    @Schmuddi and it shows how even religious people are moving away from the laws laid down in their books. Secular morality leaves the rest in its dust. – hdhondt Jul 22 '17 at 10:08
  • 3
    Thank you Tim. Looks like unless they are lying about their religion (and I don't see reason they'd do that) this is the correct answer. @Schmuddi I agree, and it's especially embarrassing that I did this because I used to live in Canada for over a decade and there you find Conservative party MPs who support same-sex marriages. – TangoFoxtrot Jul 22 '17 at 21:38
  • I'm prepared to select this as the best answer tomorrow, but I'm hoping someone can produce a "no" answer by then! – TangoFoxtrot Jul 23 '17 at 01:58
  • 20
    Hoping for an outcome in contradiction to the evidence because it meets your political preferences is perhaps not the most skeptical stance! – Oddthinking Jul 23 '17 at 02:44
  • 1
    @Oddthinking I'm not "Hoping for an outcome in contradiction to the evidence" - I'm hoping that the 'no' answer can be justified by evidence. – TangoFoxtrot Jul 23 '17 at 18:34
  • Making unwarranted assumptions about someone's motivations is not the most skeptical stance either. – LarsH Apr 26 '22 at 12:56