Did Fidel Castro put gay people into concentration camps?

Question

This r/The_Donald reddit thread features an image macro that reads:

You know what really grinds my gears?

Liberals saying that Trump will put gays into concentration camps and eliminate free speech while praising Fidel Castro... who actually did.

Did Fidel Castro put people into concentration camps because they were gay?

There is another claim in the quote, namely that *liberals prais Fidel Castro*. That's only true for a very small, radical, and non-representative subset of progressives. Same fallacy as progressive who equate any Trump supporter with white power folks. — gerrit, Feb 04 '17 at 21:50
Non-representative like Jimmy Carter, Bernie Sanders, Jesse Jackson, Dan Rather, Michael Moore, and Andrea Mitchell — , Feb 04 '17 at 21:55
@gerrit - i suggested in earlier comment that the second claim should be a separate Q — user5341, Feb 04 '17 at 21:59
To "praise Castro" is rather vague so I'm not sure if it would make a good question. Does "He did manage to survive all the time" or "healthcare there is relatively good for such a poor country" count as "praise Castro"? To me, "praise Castro" would mean to state Castro's policies are overall good. — gerrit, Feb 04 '17 at 22:03
"Did anyone accuse Trump of wanting to put gays in concentration camps, and did Castro actually do that to gays?" — That's two separate questions that should (at least) be separated, and I seriously question the notability of the first one. — jwodder, Feb 04 '17 at 22:35
Please show this image macro is notable. What is the source of it? Are you asking if Castro ran concentration camps? Great. Simplify the question. Are you asking if the claims about Trump are notable? Ugh. Weirdly meta. Are you asking whether there were individuals who both made these claims about Trump AND praised Fidel Castro? — Oddthinking, Feb 04 '17 at 22:58
@Oddthinking - does 1700+ upvotes on Reddit count as notable? https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5ko1kk/you_know_what_really_grinds_my_gears/ (Google image search. Don't leave home without it) — user5341, Feb 05 '17 at 02:23
@user5341: Thanks. I did a Google Image Search and it found lots of examples of that image, with different text. I made a couple of stabs to narrow it down, and then pushed the job back onto the OP. — Oddthinking, Feb 05 '17 at 05:19
@Oddthinking - yeah, there's tricks needed to tampen down cases where the search is too smart for its own (or rather user's) good. — user5341, Feb 06 '17 at 03:26

tim · Answer 1 · 2018-04-20T18:45:02.810

24

In the 60s, Cuba operated labor camps (see also here) for those who did not want to serve their mandatory time in the military or those who were not welcome in the military, which included gay people.

Additionally, homosexual acts which were illegal before the revolution remained illegal until 1979 and gay people were persecuted in various other ways. It is worth noting that homosexual acts were also illegal in parts of the USA until 2003.

As far as I am aware no prominent member of the democratic party or self-described liberal has said that Trump will build concentration or death camps for anyone, including gay people. The main complaint from the left-wing on the topic of homosexuality was that Trump named Mike Pence his vice president. The strongest claim against him is that he supports state-sponsored conversion therapy, which may or may not be the case, and other policies which have been described as anti-LGBT rights.

edited Apr 20 '18 at 18:45

answered Feb 04 '17 at 17:06

tim

51,356
19
207
177

Actually, if you want to use "**forced**" conversion therapy as an argument, the claim is 100% false. the quote in the linked politifact article is very explicitly "assistance to **those seeking** to change their sexual behavior", which is the opposite of "forced". – user5341 Feb 04 '17 at 19:59
1

The post also says that 'liberals praised Fidel Castro'. I can't say I've heard really any praise for Castro coming from anyone, at least not in the US. Does the premise hold water? – Batman Feb 04 '17 at 20:29
@user5341 fair enough, I edited my answer – tim Feb 04 '17 at 20:32
@AlexanderO'Mara - https://www.google.com/search?q=castro+praised+by+the+left . Front page has links to articles listing stuff, as well as to specific names (Barbara Lee, shocker) – user5341 Feb 04 '17 at 20:34
2

@user5341 I'm afraid that the right claiming the left praised him isn't in doubt for me... http://www.factcheck.org/2016/11/obama-didnt-praise-castro/ – Batman Feb 04 '17 at 20:40
4

@user5341 There are many claims from the right, most from the reactions to Castro's death. But some of the same articles also criticize the Pope, hardly a liberal, for the same statements. I don't think that this proves a wide-spread praise of Castro or his policies by the left. – tim Feb 04 '17 at 20:46
1

@AlexanderO'Mara - the fact that the right makes the claims doesn't invalidate them. Let's quote the horse's mouth: “remarkable leader” - Canadian PM Trudeau. "you gotta admire the guy" - Michael Moor – user5341 Feb 04 '17 at 21:11
@user5341 Doesn't validate them either. I had heard it before, and wasn't convinced. If there were real widespread praise, I wouldn't think it would take right wing people explaining it to me to find it, I should have already heard it. I guess "praise" isn't something we can scientifically address here though. – Batman Feb 04 '17 at 21:18
11

@user5341 The context for the Moor quote is: "Yet Castro has survived. For that accomplishment alone, despite all his flaws [...], you gotta admire the guy". I'm not sure if admiration for surviving assassination attempts really count as praise in this context. – tim Feb 04 '17 at 21:29
2

@AlexanderO'Mara I took the praise part as a given because it's been happening since McGovern: “Fidel Castro is very shy and sensitive, I frankly like him and regard him as a friend.” (Former Democratic presidential candidate, Presidential Medal of Freedom winner, and identified “Conscience of the Democratic Party,” George Mc Govern.) – Feb 04 '17 at 21:29
2

“Fidel Castro first and foremost is and always has been a committed egalitarian. He wanted a system that provided the basic needs to all Cuba has superb systems of health care and universal education…We greeted each other as old friends.” (Former President of the United States and official “Elder Statesman” of the Democratic party, Jimmy Carter.) “Fidel Castro is old-fashioned, courtly–even paternal, a thoroughly fascinating figure!” – Feb 04 '17 at 21:30
2

“Viva Fidel! Viva Che!” (Two-time candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination Jesse Jackson, while arm in arm with Fidel Castro in 1984.) – Feb 04 '17 at 21:30
2

And then you have Bernie Sanders of course http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/272485-sanders-defends-past-praise-of-fidel-castro – Feb 04 '17 at 21:35
2

@KDog - I would suggest posting a separate Skeptics question with same image, but specifically questioning Castro praising part of the claim as opposed to Trump part like you did here – user5341 Feb 04 '17 at 21:47
7

@KDog If you watch the Sanders video, you will see that Sanders tries to make a point about US interventionism and tries to explain why there wasn't a large uprising against Castro. He later clarified (from the linked article): "Cuba is, of course, an authoritarian, undemocratic country and I hope very much, as soon as possible, it becomes a democratic country". I wouldn't call this praising Castro. But I agree with user5341, this might be a good separate question (maybe with a different/additional source for the claim, which shouldn't be difficult too find). – tim Feb 04 '17 at 21:49
I don't need a separate question on how much praise Democrats have heaped on Castro over the years, thanks but not really my cup of tea. If someone else wants to that's fine. – Feb 04 '17 at 21:52
11

"Homosexual acts remained illegal until 1979". Homosexual acts remained illegal in parts of the US until 2003. – DJClayworth Feb 06 '17 at 16:50
3

@DJClayworth I know, and I think that that is an important point, but I didn't include it as to not unnecessarily politicize my answer. – tim Feb 06 '17 at 16:55
2

@KDog I can't find sources for your McGovern quote (and perhaps others) outside right-wing web sites. Can you verify when and where McGovern said this? – Andrew Lazarus Apr 21 '18 at 00:28
@andrewlazarus given that the NYT 's Duranty airbrushed Stalin murdering millions, this shouldn't be a surprise. – Apr 23 '18 at 16:08
3

@KDog **I repeat,** do you have any source other than 2nd-hand heavily-biased web sites for the McGovern quote. (And if not, maybe the mods should delete it on your behalf?) – Andrew Lazarus Apr 23 '18 at 16:11
@andrewlazarus and i repeat that any cite you would feel objective would, has and does lie constanty about communism – Apr 23 '18 at 16:14
@andrewlazarus https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1980/05/12/the-fidel-of-fantasy/bcbd51f1-ad07-4de7-b480-6cd64499e5e0/?utm_term=.ed82f71ee954 – Apr 23 '18 at 16:17
1

@KDog I'll even settle for a first-hand report, or a second-hand report that states _where and when_ this statement was made. As it is, you are using the New York Times's poor coverage of the early USSR as an excuse to post unverified claims. That's rather odd for a Skeptics site, that tendentious right-wing sites are acceptable documentation. – Andrew Lazarus Apr 23 '18 at 16:17
@andrewlazarus https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/98279/george-mcgovern-snubbed-old-friend-fidel-castro-humberto-fontova – Apr 23 '18 at 16:22
1

The first link gives me something I can at least search for in the NY Times. The third doesn't. The second doesn't appear to mention Castro at all (or my browser search missed it). Do you see these comment threads as a place to whack the Democratic Party, because I think the Politics SE would be a better place for that. Note that they all have the ellipses in the same place, which suggests they copy from each other, and not from the original. – Andrew Lazarus Apr 23 '18 at 16:28
2

@AndrewLazarus Politics.SE already has enough trolls, and they do have some guidelines; it's not the right place if you just want to bash democrats (or republicans). The user is banned there anyways though. I don't have too much doubt that the quote may be real, but I wouldn't trust any sources the user gives without checking them out in-depth. If you are interest in accuracies of the quote, you could open a new question. – tim Apr 23 '18 at 16:51
@andrewlazarus sorry about the townhall link. Here is the correct link really dont get your ad hominem attack you asked for proof and it was given. The words you should be looking for are thank you https://townhall.com/columnists/humbertofontova/2011/07/07/george-mcgovern-snubbed-by-old-friend-fidel-castro-n1137395 – Apr 24 '18 at 11:02
2

Took some effort, but [here is](https://www.nytimes.com/1977/03/13/archives/a-talk-with-castro-castro.html) the original article by McGovern. Please note he brought up the issue of political prisoners. It's by no means as naïve as the brief, edited excerpt that got copied all over. Meanwhile, can you share your opinion on [Trump's praise](https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/24/politics/trump-kim-jong-un-honorable/index.html) of Kim Jong Un as "very open and… very honorable" this morning? – Andrew Lazarus Apr 24 '18 at 16:18
Sure, after belittling Little Rocket Man for a year and actually painting him into a corner, Trump is now offering Kim nothing while he takes his Nukes away. – Apr 24 '18 at 19:34
3

@KDog Leaving aside a highly optimistic view of what will happen in North Korea (they agreed to close a site that already collapsed, BFD), you are exhibiting a remarkable double standard about saying nice things to dictators. A reasonable conclusion is that the remarks about the dictators are irrelevant to your thought process, except to the extent they provide memes for trolling. We're done here. – Andrew Lazarus Apr 24 '18 at 22:27
@andrewlazarus you accused me of fake posting, you called my sources heavily biased and tendentious, which were 100% accurate, and threatened to have my posts removed. What's a reasonable person to conclude? – Apr 26 '18 at 16:25
2

Your sources _are_ heavily biased and tendentious and their excerpt from McGovern's piece distorts his message. The fact you were too lazy to find it yourself speaks volumes, as does your directly opposite attitude towards praising murderous dictators when it comes from an American politician you like. As I said, we're done here. I don't like using SE as an extra Twitter. – Andrew Lazarus Apr 26 '18 at 22:02

yms · Answer 2 · 2017-08-21T13:21:19.097

Did Fidel Castro put gay people into concentration camps?

This claim is a fact if you consider "concentration camps" to be metaphoric.

The camps were called UMAP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Units_to_Aid_Production

They were agricultural (forced) labor camps operated by the Cuban government.

This period is known in Cuban history as "Quinquenio Gris" (The Gray Quinquennium). In recent years the Cuban government has discretely started to acknowledge their atrocities during this period.

Here is government-own Wikipedia-like page about the topic in Spanish (watered-down, with lots of added sugar):

https://www.ecured.cu/Quinquenio_gris

Here is a blog-post (in English) from a group of bloggers that support the Cuban government (although they have been censored every now and then by the very same government they claim to support):

http://cuba.blogspot.ca/2007/02/gray-quinquennium-or-five-black-decades.html

Speeches from Fidel Castro that gave birth to the nightmare (also in Spanish):

http://www.cuba.cu/gobierno/discursos/1961/esp/f300661e.html
http://www.cuba.cu/gobierno/discursos/1963/esp/f130363e.html

In the second one he said:

(...) Muchos de esos pepillos vagos, hijos de burgueses, andan por ahí con unos pantaloncitos demasiado estrechos (RISAS); algunos de ellos con una guitarrita en actitudes “elvispreslianas”, y que han llevado su libertinaje a extremos de querer ir a algunos sitios de concurrencia pública a organizar sus shows feminoides por la libre. Que no confundan la serenidad de la Revolución y la ecuanimidad de la Revolución con debilidades de la Revolución. Porque nuestra sociedad no puede darles cabida a esas degeneraciones (APLAUSOS). La sociedad socialista no puede permitir ese tipo de degeneraciones. ¿Jovencitos aspirantes a eso? ¡No! “Arbol que creció torcido...”, ya el remedio no es tan fácil. No voy a decir que vayamos a aplicar medidas drásticas contra esos árboles torcidos, pero jovencitos aspirantes, ¡no! Hay unas cuantas teorías, yo no soy científico, no soy un técnico en esa materia (RISAS), pero sí observé siempre una cosa: que el campo no daba ese subproducto. Siempre observé eso, y siempre lo tengo muy presente.

Summary: He is saying that his Revolution would not accept such kind of "feebleness", such kind of "degeneration". He said that even if he is not a scientist, he observed that agricultural regions never have such kind of "by products".

The first speech gave ground for sending to the UMAPs many writers, , professors, musicians and actors who performed, wrote or filmed something that the government did not like.

With the second speech, hell broke loose, the witch hunting begun, and it lasted several years.

The claim about Democrats praising F.Castro is... well, anecdotal at best. In general terms, it is ridiculous to say that Democrats looked up to him in any way. They were responsible for most of the hardest actions taken against his government over the course of history:

Did Fidel Castro put gay people into concentration camps?

2 Answers2