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I don't recall exactly the words he used, but to the best of my recollection Darwin was quite certain that all living things share a common ancestor.

First of all, is this correct?

Second, and more important, was there a "killer argument" available to Darwin for believing in a single common ancestor? Why might he not have supposed, for example, that life arose once and evolved into plants, and again giving rise to animals. Or once for mammals, once for birds, once for fish, etc.?

LATER - I'm still not clear on the reasons for getting downvoted, but just to clarify. There's disagreement over whether Darwin actually believed life started once only, as opposed to anywhere between twice and ten times, but that (possible) minor mistake on his part wasn't really my point. Suppose for the sake of argument that he did get it 'right'.

I'm interested in the possibility that there might have been knowledge and evidence available to Darwin that he just happened not to be aware of, or things he knew but didn't recognise as relevant. It's commonplace today to say we know evolution is true because the DNA record is irrefutable. But that wasn't available to Darwin.

FumbleFingers
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    possible duplicate of [Does DNA add credibility to the theory of evolution?](http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/1669/does-dna-add-credibility-to-the-theory-of-evolution) – Lagerbaer May 12 '11 at 18:36
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    This question reads like someone's trying to do a freshman-level book report. Can be answered by re-reading Darwin or getting the [audiobook](http://librivox.org/the-origin-of-species-by-charles-darwin/). – Monkey Tuesday May 12 '11 at 19:09
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    @Lagerbaer: Please re-read my question. I specifically asked about evidence / reasons *available to Darwin*. DNA is totally irrelevant. – FumbleFingers May 12 '11 at 20:06
  • @Monkey Tuesday: I've read "On the Origin of Species" cover-to-cover at least twice in the last 50 years. It's not that I object to reading it again, but I'm not certain even that would necessarily enable me to identify the putative "killer arguement". Which for all I know may not exist. It is of course possible he simply chose to believe in a single common ancestor by the law of parsimony, and got lucky. Come to that, I don't know of any irrefutable arguement against life starting on earth more than once, even today. – FumbleFingers May 12 '11 at 20:15
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    Nobody can answer how could Darwin be sure, or was he. Voting to close as off topic. –  May 12 '11 at 20:23
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    @Fumble You’ve read it *twice* and can’t remember the most famous quote from the book? – Konrad Rudolph May 12 '11 at 20:52
  • It's just that the question doesn't really fit here, there are plenty of academic sites with reviews of Darwin where this question would fit perfectly – Monkey Tuesday May 12 '11 at 20:58
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    @Konrad Rudolf: Oh come on! This isn't a pissing contest! Sure I remember *There is a grandeur in this view of life*, but I didn't register that crucial little disclaimer *a few forms...or one*. Forty years ago I myself took it for granted there was only one. I'd have probably ignored Darwin's vagueness on the grounds it was just a loophole allowing the church / his wife to continue believing that humanity might not share common origin with all other life. – FumbleFingers May 12 '11 at 21:03
  • @Monkey Tuesday: Well judging from the downvotes and comments, I can't disagree that my question doesn't fit this site. I am disappointed, but there it is. Thanks for the courteous clarification, anyway. – FumbleFingers May 12 '11 at 21:08
  • @fumblefingers no problem. I looked back at my original comment and realized it sounded kind of insulting. I felt I should clarify. – Monkey Tuesday May 12 '11 at 21:21
  • @Monkey Tuesday: Since you're (presumably) still here. Do you know of any other site within stackexchange where my Q *would* be appropriate? I am genuinely interested in getting an answer, but not so much that I'd sign up to anything outside SE. I only came here because I use the English site anyway, and I only asked because I couldn't find a specific answer already here. – FumbleFingers May 12 '11 at 21:30
  • @Fumblefingers I'm not entirely sure where it would fit in. One of the mods might have a suggestion for you though, or you could check over in meta. I'm sure there have to be other forums where they discuss Darwin's theories. Sorry I can't be of more help. – Monkey Tuesday May 12 '11 at 21:40
  • @Monkey Tuesday: Fair enough. I'm not really interested in his theories as such though, since things have moved on a lot since then. I just wanted to know what information was available to him to conjecture a common ancestor. Now I'm also interested in knowing whether he really *did* believe that anyway. I'm far from convinced *a few forms or one* is the only thing he wrote on that point, and most of the world seems to have ignored the first four of those words anyway. – FumbleFingers May 12 '11 at 21:51
  • As a side note - many of the predictions from Einstein's theories were completely unverifiable for decades and decades, yet many of them have been verified with modern technology - (time dilation, black holes, etc). Similarly, Darwin THEORIZED a common ancestor, because the bulk of the evidence he was able to see suggested that this was a logical companion to his observations of evolution. It may be that the overwhelming logic of the argument was persuasive to him, but that he lacked the ability to verify it, so in that sense, it's very possible he knew, but he didn't KNOW. – PoloHoleSet Sep 22 '16 at 17:10
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    @Andrew Mattson: Darwin didn't actually theorize a *single* common ancestor at all in his published work. But his unpublished notes and drawings strongly suggest that at the very least he thought that plants and animals arose independently. Of course, he knew nothing of DNA, which is today accepted as prima facie evidence of a common ancestor for all life thus far identified on earth. – FumbleFingers Sep 22 '16 at 17:18
  • @FumbleFingers - ah, I was assuming the question was based on an actual stance by Darwin, and was explaining that one can put an accurate prediction out there before verification is in. Indeed, that's the entire Scientific Principle in a nutshell, isn't it? Falsifiable predictions? Thanks for the additional detail. – PoloHoleSet Sep 22 '16 at 17:20
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    @Andrew Mattson: Things have moved on quite a bit since I asked this question (both in terms of my own Youtube-enlightened perspective, and what the leading edge researchers think). [Dr. Eric Smith](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cwvj0XBKlE) is well worth a watch if you're interested. – FumbleFingers Sep 22 '16 at 17:25
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    @FumbleFingers - thank you. I know that, in light of the finding of ice/water and amino acids on comets and asteroids, as well as evidence that organic molecules will self-organize, there's no reason why (IMO) life could not have evolved from more than one point of origin. I will check out the link. Thank you! I gave you a +1 for the comment for avoiding saying that things and your stance have "evolved" since then. – PoloHoleSet Sep 22 '16 at 17:54
  • @Andrew Mattson: I don't really deserve that +1 ;) If I *had* thought of the lame witticism, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to resist throwing it in! My current thinking (which may or may not be where the mainstream is headed) is that RNA (clearly a "precursor" to DNA) couldn't survive the ionizing radiation in deep space long enough to be a credible component of the "strong" panspermia theory. But basic principles of entropy, the CREB cycle, etc., suggest to me self-replication probably is almost inevitable. It's just *very high intelligence* that's probably relatively rare. – FumbleFingers Sep 22 '16 at 18:12

2 Answers2

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To add to Konrad Rudolph's partially correct answer, let's talk about this more. The quote you are looking for may be:

"Analogy would lead me one step further, namely, to the belief that all animals and plants have descended from some one prototype. But analogy may be a deceitful guide. Nevertheless all living things have much in common, in their chemical composition, their germinal vesicles, their cellular structure, and their laws of growth and reproduction. We see this even in so trifling a circumstance as that the same poison often similarly affects plants and animals; or that the poison secreted by the gall-fly produces monstrous growths on the wild rose or oak-tree. Therefore I should infer from analogy that probably all the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form, into which life was first breathed." (1)

Same page as Konrad's quote. Keep in mind that writing in the 1800s was different in style than today. Quite often an author will say something contradictory to their position, before getting to their point (Like Darwin did on the complexity of the eye example that creationists commonly refer to). Because, just before that, he says:

Therefore I cannot doubt that the theory of descent with modification embraces all the members of the same class. I believe that animals have descended from at most only four or five progenitors, and plants from an equal or lesser number.

You can read the full text of Chapter 14 of his book here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter14.html

However, to address the second part of your question, this quote came at the end of his book. it was based on the complete body of his work, not just one "killer argument". There is no such thing. A subject as vast, complex, and diverse as biology will never have a single killer argument. To look for one would be a fool's errand, and to believe one would be the mark of a fool. A singular killer argument is the sign of a simple question. Something evolution most decidedly is not.

The fact that pretty much every discovery in Biology (especially genetics) has supported his argument should lend credence to Darwin being right. There is no way a Victorian era gentleman would know about DNA to the level we do now, and yet he was so amazingly right about the things he wrote.

Again, he posits that perhaps plants, animals, and things that just appear too different from each other to be related may have had their own start, but then his final argument most likely lays in his inference reached by his body of work, and deduction. And keep in mind, given what knowledge was available to him in his time, his deduction was the best he could go with. All the supporting evidence came long after his death.

Now it CAN be argued that Charles Darwin was not the first to think of this. Thus his final inference may have been built upon not only the totality of his own work, but the previous thoughts of other individuals. His own grandfather Erasmus once posited in 1795:

[W]ould it be too bold to imagine, that in the great length of time, since the earth began to exist, perhaps millions of ages before the commencement of the history of mankind, would it be too bold to imagine, that all warm-blooded animals have arisen from one living filament, which the great First Cause endued with animality, with the power of acquiring new parts attended with new propensities, directed by irritations, sensations, volitions, and associations; and thus possessing the faculty of continuing to improve by its own inherent activity, and of delivering down those improvements by generation to its posterity, world without end?

And if you go further back, in the 1740s Pierre-Louis Moreau de Maupertuis suggested common descent in Essai de Cosmologie

Could one not say that, in the fortuitous combinations of the productions of nature, as there must be some characterized by a certain relation of fitness which are able to subsist, it is not to be wondered at that this fitness is present in all the species that are currently in existence? Chance, one would say, produced an innumerable multitude of individuals; a small number found themselves constructed in such a manner that the parts of the animal were able to satisfy its needs; in another infinitely greater number, there was neither fitness nor order: all of these latter have perished. Animals lacking a mouth could not live; others lacking reproductive organs could not perpetuate themselves ... The species we see today are but the smallest part of what blind destiny has produced ..

Also, there was Gregor Mendel's work in genetics that played into this. All the discoveries after Darwin's publication have just continued to lead up to verifying the idea of common descent.

I also suggest that anyone interested in evolution head over to http://factsnotfantasy.com/links.php and check out more resources on evolution and its veracity as well as history. Even Wikipedia has a very good series of discussions on it.


(1) Darwin, C., "The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle For Life", London, John Murrary, (1859) p. 490

Larian LeQuella
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    @Larian LeQuella: Thanks for picking this one up. But I don't exactly understand what you're saying. Darwin's actual words as you quote would allow for anywhere between 1 and 10 'progenitors'. Or maybe the minimum is 2, if *I should infer...* is just his own 'straw-man' to be refuted later, and if we accept the *I believe...* sentence as Darwin's true voice. So are you saying 2-10 is definitely what he believed, or that we can't be sure because of his ambivalence? – FumbleFingers May 12 '11 at 23:13
  • btw - I do actually know quite a bit about evolution, and I certainly don't expect to advance that knowledge much by perusing the internet. My question here was about Darwin's understanding of the process, and the reasons available to him. I misunderstood the scope of *skeptics*, that's all. – FumbleFingers May 12 '11 at 23:17
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    @FumbleFingers Again, it's a 19th Century writing style thing. The bolded sentence is his final conclusion _based on what he knew at the time_. There is no single killer argument. 19th Century knowledge and understanding would not equip him with one. He was doing the best that he could, and was amazingly correct in his inference. And the snarky comments were not directed at you personally, but rather many of the folks who would deny the fact of evolution. The answer provided from his quote is about as good as it gets considering the times. – Larian LeQuella May 12 '11 at 23:24
  • @Larian LeQuella: Ty. I did guess that you weren't sniping at me personally. It's hard to talk about evolution without being oppresively aware of the vast number of benighted souls who still think there's scope for arguing with the facts. I guess the bottom line is as you say, that Darwin got pretty close to the truth largely by insightful reasoning. Mind you, given what we're now learning about inter-species gene transfer, there's probably still a lot to find out about the entire process. – FumbleFingers May 13 '11 at 00:06
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    @FumbleFingers Yes, very true that we are still discovering many new things about evolution. I am personally fascinated by the thought of a "shadow biome" (i.e. the possibility of a separate abiogenesis on earth with evidence left here that we can't detect). Of course, all these refinements are touted in the media as "totally destroying Darwin's Theory of Evolution>" and other such irresponsible headlines... – Larian LeQuella May 13 '11 at 01:27
  • @Larian LeQuella: I must be a bit slow. It's finally dawned on me why my Q is getting downvoted. If even you could assume I was contesting Darwin, presumably others just glance and click. And 'even you' still seem to miss the central thing I'm getting at. I didn't expect there would be something Darwin *actually* knew, and knew was a 'killer arguement'. If that were the case we'd be celebrating it like Archimedes in his bathtub. I wanted to know if there was anything potentially knowable by him, or known but not recognised as important, that would have been a killer. – FumbleFingers May 13 '11 at 03:06
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    @FumbleFingers As I said in the answer, it would be from the entirety of his body of work, and his final inference. I guess it would be like Leonardo da Vinci needing Igor Sikorsky to realize his thought of using a screw mechanism to lift a craft? – Larian LeQuella May 13 '11 at 10:26
  • @Larian LeQuella: I feel I'm going round in circles here. Konrad assures me that Darwin didn't believe in a *single* progenitor anyway, and that does look to be true. He also assures me that *today* the idea of, say, plants and animals having separate progenitors has no credibility, which I'm happy to go along with. But whether Darwin actually believed what we 'know' today or not, my question remains - *could* the 'truth' have been irrefutably established in his time, given the knowledge already available then, plus that which he ascertained through his own investigations? – FumbleFingers May 13 '11 at 13:19
  • @Fumble Your second question sounds quite different, and very interesting. Unfortunately, I think it’s way beyond the scope if this site. It would be much better suited on, say, [Popular natural science](http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/4955/popular-natural-science?referrer=fN8eHAyzS5kN5QfMOt5KEg2) but that site proposal is unfortunately still not live. FWIW I don’t think that such evidence would have been available at his time, except perhaps for striking similarities of the organisms on the cellular level. – Konrad Rudolph May 13 '11 at 14:11
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    @FumbleFingers wouldn't be really hard to know a person's state of mind if they've not been around for over 100 years? But Larian's one quote and discussion about 19th Century writing styles seems to tentatively answer the question with yes, he had good reason to think that there was a single common ancestor. – JasonR May 13 '11 at 16:10
  • @Brightblades: That's the problem with language. He 'had good reason' to think so, sure - but did he *actually* think so? Neither your sentence nor the whole of this page (and indeed the Internet!) answers that question uneqivocably. Certainly nothing so far has answered my question as to whether there was something Darwin *could* have known (but didn't) that could have made 'single progenitor' a certainty, rather than inspired speculation. If indeed he was truly inspired on that particular 'detail'. – FumbleFingers May 13 '11 at 23:16
  • @Fumble I think you are expecting an unreasonable certitude for a philosophical question. My answer details the things Darwin wrote, and what others wrote before him. If you want a real answer, your only recourse is to invent a time machine and go back and ask him. :) – Larian LeQuella May 14 '11 at 00:04
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… to the best of my recollection Darwin was quite certain that all living things share a common ancestor.

This is wrong.

Sure, Darwin played with the idea, and there’s his famous sketch, the tree of life …

I think

But Darwin was not certain (and even if he personally believed it, I need to stress that he was not certain) that there was only one common ancestor. All he was certain about is captured in these famous words:

There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one.[1]

Notice the “into a few forms”. The idea that there might have been just one appears rather as an afterthought.

Now, in the meantime we know that there was only a single common ancestor due to the universality of the genetic code. But this evidence emerged long after Darwin’s death.


[1] Darwin, C., The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle For Life, London, John Murrary, 1859, p. 490

Konrad Rudolph
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    @Konrad Rudolf: I'm not convinced that even today we know beyond doubt that there was a *single* common ancestor. The law of parsimony pushes in that direction, but isn't *proof*. It's a dead cert that today's DNA didn't exist at all at some point in the past when there was something we would call 'life'. Oh, and by the way, Google's first page of results for **Did Darwin believe there was a single common ancestor** shows that most people think he *did*, regardless of what he wrote. – FumbleFingers May 12 '11 at 21:38
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    @FumbleFingers This is a misunderstanding. There is today no other even remotely plausible theory to explain the universality of the genetic code, except to suppose that there is indeed just *one* common ancestor. We know this beyond any reasonable doubt. A word like “proof” has no meaning in the context of science, except to mean “corroborating evidence”, and we’ve got plenty of that. *If* we ever find an organism that doesn’t share a common ancestor with us (entirely possible, but hasn’t happened yet) it won’t have DNA, nor RNA, nor proteins, *that’s* a dead certainty. – Konrad Rudolph May 13 '11 at 06:59
  • @Konrad Rudolf: Okay, so Darwin was wrong on this point, even though most people don't realise it. Don't take the analogy too far, because it's only that - but there *could* come a time when all humans speak, say, English. This wouldn't prove that language only arose once. – FumbleFingers May 13 '11 at 13:38
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    **Please explain the downvotes,** people! It’s such a simple rule, is it really too much to ask you to adhere to it? Downvoting without pointing out the errors is a really rude disregard of the time that has flown into the research and writing of the answer. Furthermore, I would like to *correct* errors in the answer, if there are any. – Konrad Rudolph May 13 '11 at 14:04
  • @Fumble Sorry, you are arguing intellectually dishonestly: you are presenting me with a flawed analogy and ask me not to take it too far. There is no way that the storage medium and mechanism of the genome could be exchanged in a living cell. No amount of mutation could cause such a change, and no theory outside of evolution exists which would explain such a change. Your analogy is presenting a fundamentally different situation in order to make this change possible. – Konrad Rudolph May 13 '11 at 14:07
  • @Konrad Rudolf: I'm not saying I disagree with a single progenitor, but considering, say, how mitochondria co-exist within our cells, or the recent discovery that we carry some neanderthal DNA, is it not at least feasible that there could have been multiple 'life-starts', some of which were incorporated into the mainstream, and some which just died out. Bottom line is I'm a bit uneaasy about a single origin because that begs the question of why it happened even once. Yeah, I know "because we're here...", but I can't help wishing it was "because it was bound to". – FumbleFingers May 13 '11 at 15:54
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    Because Darwin also said: "Therefore I should infer from analogy that probably all the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some **one** primordial form, into which life was first breathed" – JasonR May 13 '11 at 18:48
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    @Brightblades Thanks for the clarification. FWIW I’ve modified my formulation to stress that even though he played with the thought he wasn’t certain. – Konrad Rudolph May 13 '11 at 19:16
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    @Fumble Yes, it *was* bound to happen in a way, and personally I’m convinced that it happened (much!) more often than just once. But even if it happened more than once here on Earth it’s reasonable (even safe) to assume that one life form had such huge advantages over the other life forms that it supplanted them. I’m not contesting multiple origins, I’m contesting the possibility of a life form of switching, mid-run, its complete engine for a completely incompatible set, all the while preserving its hereditary information (but translated into the new incompatible “hardware”). – Konrad Rudolph May 13 '11 at 19:20
  • @Konrad Rudolf: Can't argue with any of that. Except for the possibility that in the early days various 'potentially alive' replicating entities with different characteristics might have started teaming up, leading to more success for replicating teams, etc., etc. At some point one becomes so successful it displaces the competition. I'd buy that. – FumbleFingers May 13 '11 at 23:24
  • So now we know that there is 1 and only 1 common ancestor? That life start of once and spread? That it's not possible that life start at Atlantic and simultaneously start at antartic and perhaps the carbon based ones are the one more successfully reproduce that kind of thing.? –  Nov 14 '11 at 08:25
  • @Jim Read the answer and the comments, you seem to misunderstand. We know, *for certain*, that all observed life has exactly one common ancestor. We do *not* know whether there was not some other life-form which we haven’t yet observed (and which is perhaps extinct). – Konrad Rudolph Nov 14 '11 at 17:51
  • You mean we know for sure that there is no 2 or 3 common ancestors that happen to be similar carbon based etc that might have been the ancestors of some observed life? Basically this means that life is created (whatever that means) once. Do we know that with certainty? What about protein from meteorites? It's as if we are already sure that life on other planets have the same common ancestor with life on earth too. –  Nov 15 '11 at 01:56
  • Memes are also alive. Memes can reproduce, inherit, and mutate. Are all memes have the same common ancestor? –  Nov 15 '11 at 01:56
  • @Jim There are no “proteins from meteorites”. Not that this would be impossible, but it hasn’t happened yet, and it would be strong evidence that terrestrial life has in fact originated in space (“panspermia”). (Note that peptides / amino acids do not equal proteins!) As for memes, apart from the fact that they are a highly hypothetical construct that not all scientists accept, they don’t fit most common biological definitions of life. You forget that they don’t have a persistent medium of replication and information storage, like “normal” life has (the DNA). – Konrad Rudolph Nov 15 '11 at 09:41
  • What's the definition of life anyway? Anyway here's the meteorite reference http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Murchison_meteorite.aspx I wonder if the life in those meteorite has the same common descend with life on earth. Do we know that? –  Nov 15 '11 at 09:43
  • @Jim Please don't start discussing tangential points in comments, that's what chat is for. I'll clean up the comments later. And BTW, your meteroite cite is about *amino acids* found in meteorites, that's very different from proteins and very far from anything alive. – Mad Scientist Nov 15 '11 at 09:55
  • Ah it should be it's own question don't you think? –  Nov 15 '11 at 10:05
  • @Jim You didn’t read my comment carefully. The meteor contained *amino acids*, not proteins. That’s a very different thing. The finding of amino acids is interesting, but if they had found proteins, that would be earth-shattering. As for the definition of life, it’s tricky but almost always restricted to a chemical basis. As for the rest … => chat. – Konrad Rudolph Nov 15 '11 at 11:42
  • @Fabian Please *do not* just delete the comments … as far as I know, you can instead move them to a chat, right? If you could do that I’d be very thankful. Otherwise it will probably only be a matter of time before somebody else makes the same point and I have to repeat all of my arguments. – Konrad Rudolph Nov 15 '11 at 11:43
  • @Konrad Rudolph: [Eight of the terrestrial protein amino acids have been found (in meteorites).](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11542462) That was back in 1983. – FumbleFingers Dec 05 '16 at 17:10
  • @FumbleFingers Right. Again: *amino acids*. Not proteins. A protein is a complex, structured chain of many amino acids, connected by a specific kind of chemical bond (peptide bond). – Konrad Rudolph Dec 05 '16 at 17:34