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enter image description hereenter image description hereenter image description hereI have an outdoor patio in New Mexico bordered in bricks set in Mortar. These bricks were set 5 years ago.They get wet from the sprinklers. They are seperating from the concrete foundation. You can tap the bricks and the mortar falls off in big chunks leaving the brick clean of any mortar. I have a brick border that is 20 years old getting wet from the same sprinkler water and it is solid as can be. My contractor wants to charge me to re-do what i think was a bad martor mix. Does anyone have ideas as to what the problem may be beyond bad mix?

Pat D
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  • Are they the same type of brick? All clay is not necessarily created equal. One set of bricks may be more porous than the other, leading to the mortar debonding because it is kept permanently damp from inside the brick. Just guessing, though. Also, in structural work mortar is not really a "bond" - building a wall, the mortar just fills up the uneven gaps between the bricks or stones, and *gravity* (i.e. the weight of the bricks) is what holds the wall together, not the mortar. Maybe one set of bricks is laid on a more solid foundation that the others? – alephzero Sep 28 '18 at 18:34
  • 5 years ago is a long time. Did it just happen now? Pictures? – Graham Chiu Sep 28 '18 at 20:30
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    Actually, 5 years is not a long time for mortar structure. Brick most certainly needs the structural 'glue' of mortar to hold it together, unlike CMU units. Pat D. You should look up your state's codes and state warranty for work done by contractors! Washington State has 12 year warranty. Your contractor most certainly could be held accountable. Please call Buildings and Code or look it up on the internet and let us know. Sounds like a bad job to me...Did your contractor have his own contract or AIA contract? See what he said under warranty in his contract. – stormy Sep 28 '18 at 20:39
  • Same type of brick with the same porosity. The foundations of both areas are solid, no deterioration on either. I will upload a few pictures. I will look into the contract and local codes as well. Thank You All. – Pat D Sep 28 '18 at 20:53
  • @stormy, if it were a bad job why would it be failing at 5 years instead of 1 year? – Graham Chiu Sep 28 '18 at 21:09
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    Isn't more likely that the base has subsided and instead of the mortar "failing" the bricks are settling? – kevinskio Sep 28 '18 at 21:40
  • The bricks are on a concrete foundation that is not cracking or settling. I can see a few popping out or cracking but 40 feet all failing at the same tiem is strange. – Pat D Sep 28 '18 at 22:31
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    I dont see any "retainer" to hold the brick into the joint. No edging that I can see which makes me wonder if @kevinsky is onto sonething. Also, perhaps (not sure) evaporation? How is the sun exposure on this soldier ruun conpared to thw other areas where they havent seperated? – Phlume Sep 29 '18 at 01:14
  • This is interesting! Is the rest of your patio edged like this with brick angled down and sitting on the grass? I do not see any foundation other than soil for this border; no concrete, no sand, no gravel, no mortar. Your contractor has done a seriously b a d job. This isn't about mortar, this is about the foundation of that brick...we should probably look at the foundation under your patio. I would find that guy's contract, all attachments that went along with his contract, what he specified for scope of job, did he install his own warranty in lieu of the State's warranty? – stormy Sep 29 '18 at 05:08
  • @GrahamChiu were you able to see the picture? No one installs brick edging like this. Right on top of soil AND the grass. We need a bit more information such as what it was the two agreed upon in the contract or even verbally. This sloped brick edge is nuts. To do correctly, there should be a footing at the bottom, not soil and grass. Compacted gravel layer, sand layer and then an edging type footing to hold that angle and keep it dry. Not sitting on the grass and soil? Too weird. – stormy Sep 29 '18 at 05:14
  • Sorry for the misconception of no footing. The picture taken has mud and dirt hiding the footing in the pic. As mentioned above the footing is concrete, solid with no settling or cracks, the brick is sitting atop a solid footing it is the mortar on three sides of the brick that just pops off when you tap the brick, no adhesion whatsoever. – Pat D Sep 29 '18 at 15:44
  • Pat, have you checked out the rules for contractors in your State? Is this picture an optical illusion or are these bricks truly at a 40% slope from the flat concrete patio? I do not see a proper foundation in this picture, I am sorry. Please send another picture? That brick should have an outer edge holding the weight of the brick up so it doesn't pull away from the concrete of the patio. There are even plastic edgers your contractor should have used that are pinned into the ground with stake like nails. The weight of the bricks alone would cause what I am seeing. This is about design? – stormy Sep 29 '18 at 19:41
  • Please send another picture of your patio and the edging that you wanted duplicated. I am a contractor but do not at all side with the contractor. Even if you had insisted that this was the design you wanted that doesn't absolve him of NOT educating you about what will happen in the near future. No contractor worth their salt will ever say, 'the owner is always right'! Contractors taking advantage of home owners happens constantly. That is why there are state laws to protect you. Unless he specifically stated in his contract, "In Lieu of (state law) RCW...the warranty is but one year" – stormy Sep 29 '18 at 19:48
  • Mortar doesn't bond with brick or pavers or wood like super glue for instance. It does fill in the gaps and make a WEB of structure, if the units are horizontal or vertical. Going at an angle like this is VERY different. Can be done but would cost a lot. Before this was installed was there ever a brick edging on this part of the patio? – stormy Sep 29 '18 at 19:52
  • So this is the first time i have posted on a site like this and I am feeling bad that because of poor description ans a horrible picture many have gone down unintended rabbit holes. My apologies. This second picture is better. No dramatic angle on the slope just enough for drainage. – Pat D Sep 30 '18 at 18:36
  • Please Pat, do not feel bad! This gardening help stuff done via photographs is TOUGH to do. Takes a bit of give and take, communication. I feel we give people more than they ever expected. Hang in there! This picture is dramatically different. Wow. Notice that the foundation is concrete with no mortar in between. The gap is fairly normal using concrete (brittle, different than brick) as a foundation. I'd like to see the foundation of the concrete's foundation, just dig down at least 8 inches beside this edge. I have to say, this is a very steep step off the patio, an ankle buster? – stormy Oct 01 '18 at 00:30
  • I am not saying that mortar should be between the concrete and the brick. The concrete is doing its thing with settling and the brick as its own unit is doing it's thing. I don't see mortar failure anywhere. This is not my favorite way to install brick edging on a concrete patio, I like using 4" of gravel, 2" of mason sand all compacted before installing the brick, using mortar or even just butting the bricks up together without mortar. More, organic, able to flex and move with the soil, freeze and thaw, that kind of thing. No gaps. But seriously firm edging needs to hold those bricks. – stormy Oct 01 '18 at 00:35
  • What does the junction of patio to your home look like? – stormy Oct 01 '18 at 00:37
  • ...and just a helpful idea, you would love a good blower. Those leaves could be blown off onto a quiet spot behind some plants, not against any fences, not building up on trunks of woody perennials, perhaps blown into a pile to be bagged and removed. I could not live without my line trimmer or my blower! – stormy Oct 01 '18 at 00:53
  • Blowers are incompatible with quiet spots. I can live without them. – Aaron Brick Oct 01 '18 at 16:26
  • The patio foundation is solid against the house, no separation not even a crack. I have a great leaf blower just did not have time to use it before the pics. Should have, (learning). I also tore the entire project out yesterday and noticed the Mortar is incredibly bonded to some of the brick and other brick when tapped it just falls off. Also the Mortar between the bottom of the brick and concrete footing is the same. Some areas incredibly bonded other areas the mortar pops right off. – Pat D Oct 01 '18 at 16:58

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Yes you are right the mix was bad. That and the application was bad. Adhering cement to cement is much like welding iron to iron. If done correctly the joint is actually stronger than the material being joined. What most likely happened here was a combination of cheap mortar, poor mixing and improper application techniques.

You don't need a contractor to fix this if you have some spare time. If you don't have spare time I wouldn't even bother using the same contractor because she/he is obviously just going to do a poor job at fixing her/his mistake because she/he is not operating from first principles.

Rob
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